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	<title>Comments on: Beyond training</title>
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	<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/</link>
	<description>Learning &#38; Working on the Web</description>
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		<title>By: Working/Learning Carnival, 6th Ed. &#124; Xyleme Learning Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/comment-page-1/#comment-186050</link>
		<dc:creator>Working/Learning Carnival, 6th Ed. &#124; Xyleme Learning Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Harold Jarche thinks that if mass marketing is dead, mass training will soon follow. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Harold Jarche thinks that if mass marketing is dead, mass training will soon follow. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave&#8217;s Whiteboard &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Training as a last resort</title>
		<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/comment-page-1/#comment-186042</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave&#8217;s Whiteboard &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Training as a last resort</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 20:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jarche.com/?p=1826#comment-186042</guid>
		<description>[...] a recent post, Beyond Training, Harold Jarche in one of his comments) gives his rule of thumb:&#8221;Training is the last resort, when all other performance improvement [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a recent post, Beyond Training, Harold Jarche in one of his comments) gives his rule of thumb:&#8221;Training is the last resort, when all other performance improvement [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Harold Jarche</title>
		<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/comment-page-1/#comment-186034</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold Jarche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jarche.com/?p=1826#comment-186034</guid>
		<description>I would like to see the analysis work before I agreed that mass training was the right solution, but in your case may be, Guy.

We had a client almost 10 years ago who needed to &quot;train&quot; customer service reps on a new software application. After some on-site workflow analysis we determined that much of the training was needed to make up for poor user interface design. We built a performance support tool (decision-tree in a browser) and reduced what had been a five week course to five days of instruction on how to use the tool.

Also, I am sure that there are different computer learning skills amongst these 700 learners. I know that my son can learn a new program in very short order, while my wife needs to be coached through the process. The same course may not be appropriate for everyone.

My own rule of thumb is that training is the last resort, when all other performance improvement alternatives (which are usually cheaper) have been discounted.

http://www.jarche.com/2007/06/job-aids-performance-support/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to see the analysis work before I agreed that mass training was the right solution, but in your case may be, Guy.</p>
<p>We had a client almost 10 years ago who needed to &#8220;train&#8221; customer service reps on a new software application. After some on-site workflow analysis we determined that much of the training was needed to make up for poor user interface design. We built a performance support tool (decision-tree in a browser) and reduced what had been a five week course to five days of instruction on how to use the tool.</p>
<p>Also, I am sure that there are different computer learning skills amongst these 700 learners. I know that my son can learn a new program in very short order, while my wife needs to be coached through the process. The same course may not be appropriate for everyone.</p>
<p>My own rule of thumb is that training is the last resort, when all other performance improvement alternatives (which are usually cheaper) have been discounted.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jarche.com/2007/06/job-aids-performance-support/" rel="nofollow">http://www.jarche.com/2007/06/job-aids-performance-support/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Guy Boulet</title>
		<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/comment-page-1/#comment-186031</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy Boulet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jarche.com/?p=1826#comment-186031</guid>
		<description>We currently are developing and delivering training for a new software application we are implementing in our organisation ( a large university). Although we might like to offer future users a personalized approach, we don&#039;t have the leaisure to do so. We have over 700 learners to train on more than 15 different processes in a few months.  Therefore we use &quot;mass training&quot; to offer the basic theory behind the processes and f2f training for practical application of the concepts. Everyone must perform the same tasks the same way, why should we provide personalized training?

We however offer them a practice environment where they can go on their own and practice what they have been train to do. This is where they can experiment and personalized their learning based on their level of knowledge. 

Lets just assume that we do not provide the the &quot;mass training&quot; and instead we just provide them exercises to practice on their own in the practice environment. Our help line would be overloaded, people will be frustrated to have to wait online and therefore will be more reluctant to learn the new system. We can afford having a trainer teach 15 persons per day, but can we afford having 4 or 5 persons answering each and every day the same questions asked by 25 or 50 different indiuviduals, especially if those questions could have been avoided by a simple group demonstration? And for peer support, who can support when nobody knows about the new system?

In some instances, you just can&#039;t let people learn on their own if you cannot support their learning. It may be more pedagogically sound to personnalized training, but it&#039;s not always efficient from a managers point of view. In my mind, each situation is different and requires a specific solution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We currently are developing and delivering training for a new software application we are implementing in our organisation ( a large university). Although we might like to offer future users a personalized approach, we don&#8217;t have the leaisure to do so. We have over 700 learners to train on more than 15 different processes in a few months.  Therefore we use &#8220;mass training&#8221; to offer the basic theory behind the processes and f2f training for practical application of the concepts. Everyone must perform the same tasks the same way, why should we provide personalized training?</p>
<p>We however offer them a practice environment where they can go on their own and practice what they have been train to do. This is where they can experiment and personalized their learning based on their level of knowledge. </p>
<p>Lets just assume that we do not provide the the &#8220;mass training&#8221; and instead we just provide them exercises to practice on their own in the practice environment. Our help line would be overloaded, people will be frustrated to have to wait online and therefore will be more reluctant to learn the new system. We can afford having a trainer teach 15 persons per day, but can we afford having 4 or 5 persons answering each and every day the same questions asked by 25 or 50 different indiuviduals, especially if those questions could have been avoided by a simple group demonstration? And for peer support, who can support when nobody knows about the new system?</p>
<p>In some instances, you just can&#8217;t let people learn on their own if you cannot support their learning. It may be more pedagogically sound to personnalized training, but it&#8217;s not always efficient from a managers point of view. In my mind, each situation is different and requires a specific solution.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Ferguson</title>
		<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/comment-page-1/#comment-186024</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Ferguson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:14:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jarche.com/?p=1826#comment-186024</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with you on that.  I commented on a LinkedIn question about definitions for training, learning, education, and development (a conversation I&#039;d often shun).

To me, &quot;learning&quot; underlies all the others, because I see learning as the individual&#039;s activity that results in new or strengthened neural connections.  (Not that you sit in your chair and say, &quot;let&#039;s build some neurons.&quot;)

The other three, for discussion&#039;s sake, I see as ovals on a spectrum.  Training (gaining competence in explicit / near-transfer tasks) at the low end, education (explicit / far-transfer) overlapping it a bit.  I&#039;m not crazy about &quot;development&quot; in this taxonomy, but if forced, I&#039;d have it overlap on the other side of education.

You&#039;re right, I think, about formal training as a shrinking component -- I just think it&#039;s hard for learning professionals and line managers to agree on a vision of what comes next.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with you on that.  I commented on a LinkedIn question about definitions for training, learning, education, and development (a conversation I&#8217;d often shun).</p>
<p>To me, &#8220;learning&#8221; underlies all the others, because I see learning as the individual&#8217;s activity that results in new or strengthened neural connections.  (Not that you sit in your chair and say, &#8220;let&#8217;s build some neurons.&#8221;)</p>
<p>The other three, for discussion&#8217;s sake, I see as ovals on a spectrum.  Training (gaining competence in explicit / near-transfer tasks) at the low end, education (explicit / far-transfer) overlapping it a bit.  I&#8217;m not crazy about &#8220;development&#8221; in this taxonomy, but if forced, I&#8217;d have it overlap on the other side of education.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, I think, about formal training as a shrinking component &#8212; I just think it&#8217;s hard for learning professionals and line managers to agree on a vision of what comes next.</p>
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		<title>By: Harold Jarche</title>
		<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/comment-page-1/#comment-186012</link>
		<dc:creator>Harold Jarche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jarche.com/?p=1826#comment-186012</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments so far. I don&#039;t think that moving beyond training or even beyond performance improvement is an either/or situation.  Much as there are still major opportunities for PI, we will see opportunities for networked, informal learning for a long time. What is important is that those in the training or learning &amp; development role understand that their jobs are at stake if they cannot deliver results. Courses and formal training are a shrinking compartment in the overall toolbox.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments so far. I don&#8217;t think that moving beyond training or even beyond performance improvement is an either/or situation.  Much as there are still major opportunities for PI, we will see opportunities for networked, informal learning for a long time. What is important is that those in the training or learning &#038; development role understand that their jobs are at stake if they cannot deliver results. Courses and formal training are a shrinking compartment in the overall toolbox.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Ferguson</title>
		<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/comment-page-1/#comment-186008</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Ferguson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jarche.com/?p=1826#comment-186008</guid>
		<description>Harold, that&#039;s a hell of a cogent metaphor you make in your comments.

I was musing earlier today (might have been in a comment somewhere) that one reason traditional corporate training looks as measureable and as effective as it does is that so much other stuff happens to make it look good -- people survive information dumps, coworkers aid each other, little guerilla job aids emerge.

A side effect of this rudderless approach, though, is inefficiency and superstition: people doing something in this way mostly because that&#039;s how Ned did it, and Ned knew all about the system.

(Just to be clear -- by &quot;rudderless&quot; I mean traditional organizational training, low on front-end analysis and generally bereft of either transfer or on-the-job support.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harold, that&#8217;s a hell of a cogent metaphor you make in your comments.</p>
<p>I was musing earlier today (might have been in a comment somewhere) that one reason traditional corporate training looks as measureable and as effective as it does is that so much other stuff happens to make it look good &#8212; people survive information dumps, coworkers aid each other, little guerilla job aids emerge.</p>
<p>A side effect of this rudderless approach, though, is inefficiency and superstition: people doing something in this way mostly because that&#8217;s how Ned did it, and Ned knew all about the system.</p>
<p>(Just to be clear &#8212; by &#8220;rudderless&#8221; I mean traditional organizational training, low on front-end analysis and generally bereft of either transfer or on-the-job support.)</p>
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		<title>By: Marguerite Inscoe</title>
		<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/comment-page-1/#comment-186005</link>
		<dc:creator>Marguerite Inscoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jarche.com/?p=1826#comment-186005</guid>
		<description>I love how this article simply states, the way we will learn in the future is not how we’ve learned in the past.  It doesn’t mean that all past practices will fade; proven concepts and strategies will always have their place.  As learning professionals we need to take a hard look around us.  Very little is the same in life as was it was 20 years ago, and yet many are teaching the same way.  The amount of information available now is almost inconceivable.   Compare this to marketing and it makes a  lot of sense.  The number of products and services every business wants to sell you is innumerable.  Technology has allowed for spam marketing but it has also, for the first time, made advertising customizable to the consumer.  It looks like commerce is setting the pace for creating behavioral change and the learning industry is just catching on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love how this article simply states, the way we will learn in the future is not how we’ve learned in the past.  It doesn’t mean that all past practices will fade; proven concepts and strategies will always have their place.  As learning professionals we need to take a hard look around us.  Very little is the same in life as was it was 20 years ago, and yet many are teaching the same way.  The amount of information available now is almost inconceivable.   Compare this to marketing and it makes a  lot of sense.  The number of products and services every business wants to sell you is innumerable.  Technology has allowed for spam marketing but it has also, for the first time, made advertising customizable to the consumer.  It looks like commerce is setting the pace for creating behavioral change and the learning industry is just catching on.</p>
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		<title>By: Virginia Yonkers</title>
		<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/comment-page-1/#comment-186003</link>
		<dc:creator>Virginia Yonkers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jarche.com/?p=1826#comment-186003</guid>
		<description>I am in the field of both education and marketing (I teach both education and marketing courses) and I have long said there is very little difference.  In both, there is needs assessment and plans of action based on the context along with different ways to communicate the same message.  Just like in education/training, however, there are differences in opinion as to the most &quot;cost effective&quot; way to meet goals (or sales targets).

In fact, there is a debate going on in the marketing world as to whether the new targeted marketing using new technologies is the way to go.  &quot;Viral Marketing&quot; using things such as facebook has really taken off.  But more traditional organizations have criticized this form of marketing as it is difficult to measure its impact (sound familiar on the training side?).  I think, like marketing, there will always be the traditionalists, but they will start to change as there is evidence of the impact that training 2.0 (for lack of a better term) has on organizational learning and acheivement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am in the field of both education and marketing (I teach both education and marketing courses) and I have long said there is very little difference.  In both, there is needs assessment and plans of action based on the context along with different ways to communicate the same message.  Just like in education/training, however, there are differences in opinion as to the most &#8220;cost effective&#8221; way to meet goals (or sales targets).</p>
<p>In fact, there is a debate going on in the marketing world as to whether the new targeted marketing using new technologies is the way to go.  &#8220;Viral Marketing&#8221; using things such as facebook has really taken off.  But more traditional organizations have criticized this form of marketing as it is difficult to measure its impact (sound familiar on the training side?).  I think, like marketing, there will always be the traditionalists, but they will start to change as there is evidence of the impact that training 2.0 (for lack of a better term) has on organizational learning and acheivement.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Horne</title>
		<link>http://www.jarche.com/2008/10/beyond-training/comment-page-1/#comment-186002</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Horne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.jarche.com/?p=1826#comment-186002</guid>
		<description>Harold,

Great post.  As a refuge from the corporate training world, I have to say that most adult learners don&#039;t want to come to another class, no matter how wonderfully developed we think it is.  And when I think about the intense &quot;mass marketing&quot; we had to do to fill a few seats...I suspect we spent more time marketing than actually training.

While we will continue to have mass training for certain things, much of it will be social in nature.  What might social mass learning look like?  While it&#039;s true we get lots of junk mail, does anyone actually take it inside the house?  Mine goes immediately into the recycle bin in the garage...Apparently without mass mailings, the US Postal Service would fold...

Now that I work in the K-12 world, I see a lot of similarities.  Kids, certainly by high school and often before, are ready to forge their own learning path.  As more colleges abandon the SAT, GRE, etc., other admission criteria will emerge.  It&#039;s an exciting time to watch it unfold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harold,</p>
<p>Great post.  As a refuge from the corporate training world, I have to say that most adult learners don&#8217;t want to come to another class, no matter how wonderfully developed we think it is.  And when I think about the intense &#8220;mass marketing&#8221; we had to do to fill a few seats&#8230;I suspect we spent more time marketing than actually training.</p>
<p>While we will continue to have mass training for certain things, much of it will be social in nature.  What might social mass learning look like?  While it&#8217;s true we get lots of junk mail, does anyone actually take it inside the house?  Mine goes immediately into the recycle bin in the garage&#8230;Apparently without mass mailings, the US Postal Service would fold&#8230;</p>
<p>Now that I work in the K-12 world, I see a lot of similarities.  Kids, certainly by high school and often before, are ready to forge their own learning path.  As more colleges abandon the SAT, GRE, etc., other admission criteria will emerge.  It&#8217;s an exciting time to watch it unfold.</p>
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